Msia discusses the role hip-hop plays in Black movement work and women’s role in liberation and the nuance of sexualization in hip-hop music. Msia Clark is an associate professor of African Cultural and Feminist Studies at Howard University. Msia has written numerous publications including the texts Hip-Hop in Africa: Prophets of the City & Dustyfoot Philosophers, Pan African Spaces: Essays on Black Transnationalism, and the forthcoming African Women in Digital Spaces: Redefining Social Movements on the Continent and in the Diaspora.
Transcript:
Intro:
Welcome to Radical Futures Now. On this podcast, we connect with social justice leaders around the world to talk about how to organize, how to be in movement and how to build radical futures now.
Rhiki:
All right. So to start us off, I want to ask this opener question. So, Msia, how do you take care of yourself during this time? And I mean during this time of COVID pandemic, uprising, what have you been doing to take care of yourself?
Msia:
Well, it definitely helps that I love what I do. Class is sometimes like a healing session. So, this semester I’m teaching social media and political change and black women in popular culture. And so, we really get to read about and talk about what it means to be black in this world every day. So we get to come to class and just kind of talk about some of the foolishness that’s happening, how we feel about it, trauma, how to get past stuff and there’ve been more than one time that a student has kind of talked about their personal battles with things, with being black, with being a black woman. And so that I’ve found really, really helped me. And so, all of the struggle, beauty and possibility that comes with being black in this country, just being able to express that and work through that with my students has been amazing, but I definitely also take time for passion projects, for me time, TV time and regularly checking in with my black woman therapist. She’s awesome. So yeah, that’s how.
Rhiki:
I think it’s really great that you have a class where students are able to use this class as a way to get out their frustrations with what’s happening in the world. I think that’s really important and I’m really interested in this social media and political change class. If you could give me a brief overview of the type of conversations that happen in that class, I would love to hear.
Msia:
Well, the class, every fall is centered around the previous year’s kind of the movements that have really dominated social media. Black Lives Matter has continued to be a focus in this year, especially. And so we focus on the US and countries in Africa. So, we’ll look at Black Lives Matter. We’ll look at, SayHerName, we’ll look at Black Girl Magic as kind of more than just a hashtag, but we’ll also look at the total shutdown, the movement against gender based violence in South Africa, and other movements happening on the continent. We’ve added the hashtag Karen this semester to deal with white women in privilege. And so just really looking at how social media, because black people tend to use Twitter, for example, at higher rates than white people in America and just how we’re using it because our stories are not well represented in mainstream media. And so it that’s what the course deals with.
Trevor:
Yeah. I’m definitely one of those black people that use Twitter often. Black Twitter is my favorite thing. So.
Msia:
Yes, Black Twitter is amazing.
Rhiki:
So Trevor, go ahead and tell us how do you take care of yourself during this time?
Trevor:
Well, scrolling on Twitter is definitely one of the things I actually do… What else do I do? I’ve been watching a lot of basketball. That’s one of the things for me that’s like my go-to happy place, is just to sit down and watch basketball and my team is still in the playoffs. So, that’s been really good. I’ve also started getting back into reading a little bit more. I felt like this was the perfect time since we’re inside most of the time to really start to read again and pick up that love for reading. So, I picked up about six books over the course of the last week. So I’m really excited to just sit down and start grinding on reading. But yeah. Yeah. Rhiki, what about you? What have you been doing?
Rhiki:
Okay. I’ll answer that, but I’m really curious, who is your team?
Trevor:
Who is my team? Oh, I’m a Clippers fan.
Rhiki:
Really? [crosstalk 00:04:51] Clippers? Okay.
Trevor:
Yeah. I’m a Clippers fan. Well, the LA connection right there. What’s the Lakers? I don’t know what that is, so.
Rhiki:
Oh, okay. So the way that I’ve been taking care of myself during this time is very similar to you, Trevor. I’ve been reading a lot, really taking advantage of having all this free time and trying to use it to develop myself by reading texts that I’m really interested in. Also, I’ve been doing a lot of writing this summer in the form of poetry. And other than that, it’s mostly just Netflix. That’s how I escape the realities of what’s happening in the world is just by bingeing a Netflix show. So, that’s me. So let’s get started. So Trevor, can you tell the people a little bit about our speaker today?
Trevor:
Yes. So today we have Msia Clark, the associate professor of African culture and feminist studies at Howard University. She has written numerous publications, including the texts, Hip-Hop in Africa : Prophets of the City and Dustyfoot Philosophers, Pan African Space: Essays on Black Transnationalism and the forthcoming, African Women in Digital Spaces: Redefining Social Movements on the Continent and in the Diaspora. She is also a photographer and podcaster. She hosts a Hip hop, African blog and podcast at hiphopafrican.com, sits on the editorial board of the journal, Global Hip Hop Studies. So, a lot. Very accomplished. So welcome, Msia.
Msia:
Thank you. Thank you so much.
Trevor:
Of course. And one of the first questions that I have is what are your thoughts on the recent uprisings and global response around the world over police killings and the killing of black bodies in general?
Msia:
Well, I’m hopeful in terms of really seeing the turnout of folks globally. It’s definitely been… Seeing the different types of folks that are coming out. I think when I was going out this summer and looking around, I was like, “Wow, white people out here.” It was definitely more than I’ve ever seen. And I know I’ve listened to the podcast, your podcast before, and I know you guys have commented on this as well and just kind of like, “Wow.” So there’s definitely that hope. There’s also the fear of it. Like what does this mean? And realizing that the over-policing and killing of black bodies kind of feeds into a capital system that is really invested in its own survival. And the criminalization of black bodies is like this pillar of the prison industrial complex. The defunding of the police and transforming law enforcement in communities of color will be a blow to that prison industrial complex.
Msia:
So I’m like, “Okay, I know that it’s not going to be dismantled easily.” And so there is this fear of what is going to happen and not being sure what the future entails. We have never gotten this far. We’ve never heard defund the police coming out of the mouths of mainstream media. And so, it’s definitely very… There’s that fearfulness. But I also really want to shout-out one of my former chairs at the Department of Pan-African Studies at Cal State, Los Angeles, Dr. Melina Abdullah, who was one of the founders of the BLM, Black Lives Matter, Los Angeles chapter. She was really the one who really helped me understand how necessary it was to bring that struggle and integrate it into what I was doing as a teacher, and how important it was if you’re teaching black bodies, that you also have to understand that struggle that you’re participating out in the street that you have an obligation to also bring that into the classroom.
Msia:
And so being able to do that has been something I really, really learned from her and kind of seen the consequences, things that have happened to her because of that has also been something I’ve noticed and seen. But one of the things that have been a little bit disheartening is the responses by Europeans to Black Lives Matter movements in England and France. And so BLM movements there have been met with a lot more resistance, denial and even anger. And so the racism in Europe is just as ugly as it is here in the US but it behaves and moves differently. And so, if you go on YouTube and you look at some of the BLM movements in England, the comments and the responses are just really far more aggressive than they are here in a weird way, in the sense that there’s just this really kind of disbelief. It’s like, “Okay. Well, then leave. If you don’t like it, then leave. Most of you are the children of immigrants. So go, if you don’t like it here.”
Msia:
So that’s been interesting, watching folks in Europe stand up and say, “Yes, we’re also kind of dealing with these things and we’re going to turn this into a global movement.” And watching Europeans say, “No. No, no, we’re not going to let that happen.” So, these things have been interesting to kind of witness. And I was telling someone the other day, 2020, especially summer 2020 is going to be one that historians are going to write about. We’re literally living history in the making.
Trevor:
100%. And thank you for shouting out Dr. Melina Abdullah, like being from LA and seeing the work that she’s been doing for a long time. But over these past few months, I’ve got to see her at a couple of marches and see her speak. And yeah, she’s just so, so dope. And it really is the heartbeat of the movement out there in LA. So yeah, that shoutout was definitely well warranted for sure, for sure.
Rhiki:
And I also appreciate you talking about fearfulness and being vulnerable with that, because it’s true. Like I’m scared too, you’re right. We’ve come so far. We never come this far before, but because of that, the steps that we take after this will be completely new. How we go about this movement, working and bringing about change after this will be new. So it was just the high level of uncertainty, not only for what the future will hold, but how to go about doing it, how to go about organizing. So yeah, not to say that we shouldn’t, we should continue to move forward, but there is like a little bit of fearfulness there, because you don’t know what to expect next, and you don’t know the type of blowback that is awaiting us in the future. So, yeah.
Msia:
Exactly, yeah.
Rhiki:
So, my question is… Kind of to switch gears to Hip hop. Why is it important for us to bring Hip hop and pop culture into the classrooms and into other academic spaces?
Msia:
Well, one of the reasons I really started… Well, first off I’m a Hip hop head, grew up with it, kind of one of the… I don’t know, like a second wave Hip hop generation. I’m not quite sure how to define that, but so grew up with Hip hop. But then as I got more into cultural studies, kind of realizing the impact of cultural representations, that music, film, art, can be just as useful as a textbook in telling a people’s history, their struggle and their truths, and using Hip hop, I’ve been able to teach feminism and sexuality, youth perspectives on corruption and politics, the politics of language and identity. And I think Hip hop more than any other genre, especially when you take it back to its roots, makes it perfect for the classroom because of its honesty. And because of its roots as a tool for artists to tell their experiences and their views, we’re familiar with Chuck D’s quote that, “Hip hop is the ghetto CNN.” And there’s no filter.
Msia:
So as a result, Hip hop artists have been involved in social change and Hip hop music has often been the soundtrack for that social change. So, it really becomes just a great tool for learning a specific experience in a specific perspective.
Trevor:
I’m also a Hip hop head as well. I’m also an artist as well. So where do you see the roles of rappers, singers, actors, any type of artists during this time, during this uprising and how do you see them helping to push the needle forward to bring about change?
Msia:
Well, I think artists play different roles, and a lot really depends on their situations. And so I know when you look at Africa, for example, some artists live in countries where they can’t go into the streets and protest. And in the US, you have some African artists, for example, who because of perhaps their immigration status have to be careful about how they protest. And so, they use their voices in other ways and sometimes more subtle ways. And sometimes it’s through their music and through kind of the things that they say in their music. Some artists, however, are in the streets and some are with the protesters, side-by-side with the protestors. I know for example, in countries like South Africa and Senegal, as well as here in the US but specifically in South Africa and Senegal, the artists have been directly involved in kind of getting youths to vote, voting out of office leaders that they felt were corrupt or that they wanted to see regime change.
Msia:
And when you look at North Africa in Tunisia and Egypt, Hip hop artists were involved in the Arab Spring. So, artists have a huge role to play. The extent of that role really depends on the artist. I know that at the very least, artists have been able to articulate the grievances of those who were in the streets, at the very least. But at the other end of the spectrum, the artists are themselves in the streets with the activists.
Rhiki:
Yeah. Back when the protests were happening in various cities and stuff, I remember seeing social media posts where J. Cole was just out there in the streets with everybody else. And that was cool. But I also watch this video by Dave Chappelle, the comedian who was talking about the role of celebrities in the movement. And he was basically saying he chose not to comment about it or speak about it for a while, because he felt like the people didn’t need to see him, or they didn’t need to hear his voice. Like we just needed to see what was happening. Like we just needed to uplift the everyday grassroots organizers in that moment, instead of centering celebrities. So I just want to get your thoughts about that.
Msia:
Dave Chappelle it’s been… My kind of views and feelings about some of the things that he has said, it’s been like, “Ooh.” There are times I’m like, “Brother. Okay.” But that stand-up was probably my favorite stand-up he has done in a really long, since the days of the Chappelle Show. And so I think that 90% of it was right on point. And I definitely think that this idea that we have to put a mic in the face of celebrities to see what they have to say, I do think that, yeah, they should not be the barometer for how things are going. At the same time, I do think that we should expect them to do more than just kind of go on as if nothing is happening. And I think one of the things when you contrast in terms of sports, talking about basketball, I was looking at LeBron’s era versus Michael Jordan’s era. Jordan, and they played like everything was cool, like nothing was happening.
Msia:
In LeBron’s era, they were like, “Oh no, no, no, we’re not going out there. No, stop. Stop everything.” So, you can’t just act like nothing is happening. So yeah, no, I definitely understand where he was coming from.
Rhiki:
Yeah. Yeah. And I do appreciate the national basketball leagues really using their platform as an opportunity to display what’s happening out in the world, especially the WNBA. Like they’ve been on it. I’m just saying… Every time I see their shirts, I’m just like, “Oh.”
Msia:
Yeah.
Rhiki:
Yeah.
Trevor:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). One more question for me, I guess is just starting in the Bronx with young black men and then in Tanzania you said that it’s mostly from urban areas and the best are from the poorest neighborhoods. Now, in the US, Hip hop has become more materialized and capitalized and less about speaking on the experiences of the people. But how does that contrast with the music that’s coming out of the continent of Africa? So how does that compare?
Msia:
Yeah. So, Hip hop all over Africa almost always comes out of the urban areas. So, it’s just the nature of it. I think just like the US, that Hip hop in the US, kind of the strongest Hip hop scenes are in urban areas. Some of the first rappers though, did come from middle-class homes in Africa, just because they had access to the resources, but it was the youths in the ghettos in Africa that most identified with Hip hop’s inner city roots. But the battle between commercial rap and underground rap is strong across the continent. In some places it’s stronger.
Msia:
So you have some countries like South Africa where it’s a much stronger battle because the money at stake is much higher. So you do have artists that are… Like Johannesburg, the rap scene is much more commercial versus Cape Town where you have a really strong connection to the original elements of Hip hop and they take their hip hop much more seriously in Cape Town. Nigeria has been pretty much dominated, the scene has been dominated by more commercial artists like Davido, artists that are not necessarily rappers, but have kind of taken over and been labeled Hip hop. So, yeah, it’s definitely a very interesting thing. And so, you’re finding that battle, the same battle you have in the States, where the commercial… What you hear on the radio in the US is not a reflection of what’s happening in Hip hop in the US.
Msia:
So there’s just so many, like when you look at the… Well, people talk about Cardi B and Nicki Minaj and Megan Thee Stallion, those are three women, but there are so many more women that are rapping in the US, that they’re just like literally three of dozens of women that I can think of that are out there doing their thing in the US Hip hop scene.
Trevor:
So, do you think that happens? Why do we tend to just focus on certain groups of artists? Like you said, Cardi B, Meg… Why do we tend to focus on them versus people like Rapsody or Chika, or all these other sort of female artists that are also doing great work as well? Why do we tend to focus on some more than others, I would say?
Msia:
I think the industry… I definitely think people my age talk about the golden era of Hip hop, the nineties where you had all this diversity and then in the US, you of course had this time period where the major labels really consolidated and bought up most of the independent labels. And then you literally had like three major labels at the end of the day. And so, it pretty much pushed everyone else out. And so you had to become an independent artist or play the game and rap about what they wanted you to rap about and market yourself how they wanted you to market yourself. And so it then became very, very difficult. And the idea was, “Well, we only need a few women on the scene. There’s not enough room for all of these other women.”
Msia:
And this is what sells. This is the formula that sales. We went through the gangster rap era. We went through the [inaudible 00:23:03] era. So these are the formulas that have sold. And so that is kind of… And it’s not even just Hip hop that that is applied to, there’s a really… I can’t remember the name of a good documentary. Oh gosh, it was on Hulu at one point that talked about this transformation of the music industry where corporations kind of took it over and created artists. So like we know Cardi B doesn’t write her own lyrics and that’s fine, I guess, but the creation of these artists… You got your makeup team, you got your choreographers, you got your writers and your auto tune and put them in the microwave, ding, you have an artist. And you play them continuously on the radio saying this is a hot new track. By the end of the day, you’ve heard it so much. You have said to yourself, “This is a hot new track.”
Msia:
So, it’s like this formula that does not leave room for creativity. So yeah, it’s about business and it’s not about music. It’s not about creativity and that’s unfortunate, but you do have artists that are out there, like Sha-Rock who’s an MC from BC. I think she’s based in Atlanta right now. One of the best MCs out there, but she doesn’t get the mainstream airplay that she deserves, but you do have like I know Insecure. Sometimes I watch Insecure and I’ll turn [inaudible 00:24:36]. And I’m like, “[crosstalk 00:24:41].” I’m like, “Who is this?” So yeah. That’s how sometimes you got to catch people because otherwise it’s like how do you hear about them? So, yeah.
Rhiki:
I do appreciate you bringing that up. Like how the music industry too is a part of this capitalistic society in which artists aren’t as free to have creative freedom, almost. Like they kind of have to appease the masses and sometimes that means doing stuff that isn’t necessarily what you want to do, but what you know will sell.
Msia:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rhiki:
And this also brings me to my next question. So I want to talk a little bit about feminism in Hip hop and how… Okay. So, you know how there is… I’ll just say it. So I’ve been hearing a lot of stuff lately about the new Cardi B, Megan Thee Stallion song, WAP, whatever you want to call it. And like a lot of people have been saying as a artist or as a celebrity you need to be conscious of how what you’re putting out there is influencing the younger generation. So like this whole being a role model thing, but then there’s people saying, “Well, we didn’t get into this to be a role model.” And I just want to talk about the sexualization of black women in the music industry and what are your views on it as far as like, okay, so there’s this other divide where you know kind of stepping out of your comfort zone and being free, like sexually free, putting your body out there can be a form of feminism as far as you’re not going to repress my sexuality.
Rhiki:
But then also, there’s this thing like we’re more than just our body. So stepping away from the whole making it about our body and just our lyrics being about something completely different. Like what… Yes, what are your thoughts?
Msia:
That is definitely a tough one. I know that Hip hop feminism and the scholarship that came up around that was a reaction to black feminism and the respectability politics of black feminism. It was black women in Hip hop culture, that was a unique experience. And black feminism kind of had their respectability politics about these things. And that you were participating in all of these things, exploiting black woman and sexualizing black women and all of these things. But Hip hop feminism recognize that, but also kind of recognize this idea that what if as a black woman I want to express my sexuality in a way that society may say is inappropriate. And so, kind of the idea that because black women have been portrayed in these ways of being hypersexual and all of these other things that we know have their roots in slavery and everything.
Msia:
But if that is someone’s authentic self and they want to express themselves, then to tell them that they can’t is itself a form of oppression. So, there is that argument and then the furthering of the Hip hop feminism, there’s a newer version of like there’s a Crunk Feminist Collective, there’s Ratchet Feminism, which is something that’s come out as well. Folks kind of an offshoot of Amber Rose’s SlutWalk and kind of this idea of women being able to talk about their sexuality in ways that were frowned upon previously. So there is that, but there’s the other side of it that’s… When you look at, for example, the WAP song, the majority of the writers of that song were men. It’s like, where do you draw the… There’s no way to really know if this particular expression of black female sexuality. Is this woman’s genuine expression of her sexuality? Or is it a group of male executives who are selling, saying, “We want to sell your sexuality and in order for you to remain at this label, this is what you need to do?”
Msia:
So, it’s hard to know which is which, and so then we find ourselves… Yeah, it’s tough. It’s a tough one. And so some women decide to center their sexuality, but unfortunately some women are coerced into censoring their sexuality. I do say that one of the areas I do think that it’s been positive is kind of the representation of queer women. I think queer women have been more visible in Hip hop and more… I guess, able to express themselves in a way that maybe they weren’t in the past in earlier days in Hip hop. And I think that in the US and then even in Africa, in South Africa there is an artist, Dope Saint Jude, who is an out queer artist out of Cape Town. And for a while, women were in the closet, they couldn’t express themselves. So I do think that has been one of the positive areas of this kind of expression of female sexuality.
Trevor:
Yeah. When you were talking, it just kind of makes me think. I saw a tweet… Again, going back to Twitter, I saw a tweet and someone was like, “You all allow Lil Wayne to talk about Lollipop.” Like for all of this stuff. And all these men that just get away with just saying whatever they want being very, very sexual on a track, but then when women do it, it’s just a total… It’s like, there’s an uproar. Like, “You’re not a role model. You’re not doing this, you’re not doing that.” So it just constantly makes me think about that sort of double standard that exists within Hip hop that’s always sort of been there, whether it be like, women not being able to truly express themselves within the art form or just having that double standard of just like, men can say one thing, they can’t say the other thing.
Trevor:
So I don’t know. The controversy behind the entire WAP song to me is just like… It’s really stupid. It’s really stupid at this point just because men get away with saying the same exact thing, like literally down to a tee and don’t get in trouble and have no controversy behind it, so.
Msia:
That is true. I think a lot of times, male… I don’t know, fragility and ego, male ego sometimes, especially cis-heterosexual male ego can sometimes be a bit fragile and it sometimes feels threatened by assertive female sexuality. So, there’s also that.
Rhiki:
Yeah. I also feel like there is kind of pressures on male artists too, or at least Hip hop artists to present a certain persona, kind of like this toxic masculinity, like how they have to be hard and they have to have certain life experiences and they are expected to have those types of things in their lyrics. I think that is also there. But I was talking to one of my friends earlier this week, actually, Paige, who is a part of the podcast team. And we were talking about like, as far as the sexualization of women artists, women who primarily, only their music is only around their sexuality and their bodies. Like whether you can categorize that as sex work. And when thinking in perspective of Cardi B, how she also used to be a stripper, I don’t know. Just how to get people more aware of sex work and everything that kind of falls within that.
Msia:
Yeah. No. And I think one of the things is she’s… One of the ways she surprised people is that she actually has an opinion about politics. And I remember also when she went to Nigeria, one of the things that was interesting is she went to a strip club and actually spent quite a bit of money on some of the dancers that were there. And some people didn’t see the broader significance of that in her going there as someone who danced at a club, validating these women who probably had never made that kind of money and just… Because a lot of the times American artists go to Nigeria, they stay in their five-star hotels, they do their shows, they go home, but she went to a strip club and spent money and recognize these women and their work. And I honestly thought that that was pretty cool.
Trevor:
So, I have a question just switching gears a little bit. So you said you’re a Hip hop head, so I got to ask you, what are your go-to three albums?
Msia:
Well, that is a really tough question. So one of the artists that I really in terms of artists that are out now active, especially in the States, I really do love Kendrick Lamar. One of the things of being a black woman in Hip hop that loves Hip hop is there are the contradictions. So there are some contradictions in his music, but as a lyricist, I really, really do love his music. There’s an artist out of South Africa, Gigi Lamayne and I love her music. She’s a really, really dope lyricist and anything she puts out, I immediately just gravitate towards it. And then I listen to a lot of old school stuff. I think my very favorite old school artist that people are always surprised about, but MC Lyte. I love anything that she… She came out with her first… I’m not going to say what grade I was in, but I love her music. Her stuff was just… Yeah. So, those are… Yeah, the three, I would say just kind of off the top of my head, but there are definitely others whose music I love.
Trevor:
For sure. Sorry to put you on the spot there. I had to see where your head was at.
Msia:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Trevor:
All right. One more thing… Msia, are there any projects or publications that you’re currently working on, you want to plug anything or anyone to the people?
Msia:
Yeah. I’m actually working on a few things. I am co-editing a special issue of the Global Journal of Hip-Hop Culture with the organization Words Beats and Life that I know Gilbert has worked with before, but we’re doing a special issue on Hip hop in South Africa. I have a few articles in a book project I’m working on. I still have a podcast. We just released an episode where I was interviewing an artist Moonaya from Senegal. And this semester we’re actually working on establishing an African Hip hop archive at Howard University. So, there’s one at Harvard and there’s one at Cornell and well, the focus is mostly on Hip hop in the States, but yeah, we’re trying to get that established. So we’re in the very, very beginning stages of that, but yeah, we’re hoping to get something set up at Howard.
Trevor:
Dope, dope, dope. So thank you so much, Msia for joining us today on the Radical Zone. You can check out Msia’s work at Msiak… How you pronounce this? Make sure I get your website down.
Msia:
M-S-I-A-K-I-B-O-N-A-C-L-A-R-K.com.
Trevor:
Okay, perfect. So you can check out her work at msiakibonaclark.com. And as we do always, we like to end with a quote and this quote is from the great, great Fred Hampton, “You don’t fight racism with racism. You fight racism with unity.”
Announcer 1:
And that’s it for our episode today. The Radical Futures Now podcast is housed under the Arcus Center for Social Justice Leadership at Kalamazoo College. Special thanks to Trevor Loduem-Jackson for our music and [inaudible 00:38:28] for our graphics. Be sure to follow us on our Instagram, @arcuscenter . See you next week.